So as everyone was leaving last night, the topic of multiple attacks with Natural Attacks from a high bab came up.

Many animals have multiple forms of attacks, such as 2 claws and 1 bite. Normally the "primary" has about a 5 higher AB then the "secondary". I like the idea that as creatures get more powerful, they should be able to get multiple attacks with their natural weapons. Just as a character with dual wield would gain an additional primary hand attack at 6 bab, so should critters with a 6 bab.

My idea with it though is only the attack designate primary gets this additional attack, and like real weapons, the attack is made at a 5 penalty. This happens again at 11 and 16bab. If the primary attack is 2 attacks (such as 2 claws), then they can make their two attacks at said attack bonus.

Thoughts?

Can we, instead, give PC's with natural attacks "Slams" and work from there?

I'm not opposed to PC's getting their full attacks per round (or exceeding it, effing monks), but I don't want to give monsters a new advantage.  Imagine a dragon with 3 more bite attacks per round...or a tarrasque....lulz.

I'm sure you have read this, but for anyone who hasn't and cares to read from the SRD:

Natural Weapons Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

Bite The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.

Claw or Talon The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

Gore The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.

Slap or Slam The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

Sting The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.

Tentacle The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

That being said... I totally agree that PC's should get their full attacks per round even if they are using natural weapons... I do NOT, however, think we should add to animal companions, monsters, pets, etc etc etc's attacks. They are usually significantly worse than PC's by design and should remain as such.

The fact that they START with multiple attacks gives them a huge advantage over PC's and NPC's of humanoid types. I'd take 3 1d3 attacks over a single 1d8 attack any day. As PC's get more and more powerful, this advantage begins to dwindle... which is why humanoids are generally the dominant species... we can kill animals more effectively than they can kill us.

TL;DR: I think PC's should get the multiple natural weapon attacks. I don't think monsters/animals should.

-Z

So now we need clear rules.  For example, does the werewolf PC with +16 bab get the following:

Bite: +16/+11/+6/+1
Claw 1: +11/+6/+1
Claw 2: +11/+6/+1

I think the more reasonable idea is the following:

One primary natural attack gets the benefit of extra attacks.  All other natural attacks take a -5 AB penalty, and can only be used 1/round.

On a side note:  One reason that natural attacks DON'T get extra attacks is that (I think), they often have secondary effects to their attacks.  For example, cats get auto-grapple.  Wolves get auto-trip. 

If a natural attack is given multiple attacks per round from high BAB, I think we should NOT also give it the special secondary effect.

Thoughts?

I think there are 3 main reasons why monsters don't get extra natural attacks:

1) Natural attacks already come in multiples.

Most of the time, creatures get 1 bite + 2 claws, or 0 bite + 2 slams, or something. Larger dragons have 6 natural attacks. The "full attack" of an elemental, golem, or dragon already includes multiple attacks at their highest attack bonus, so they don't need even more attacks at a reduced AB.

2) Monsters have really high BAB.

A CR 9 water elemental has a BAB of 15--about 70% greater than a level 9 martial class player. So it seems that Wizards is balancing the monsters by giving them fewer attacks, but making those attacks much stronger. Adding monster attacks may be intuitive, but it will make them really really strong.

3) It makes the game less fun.

No one likes watching the DM make lots of attack rolls--most of which miss anyway. It's a boring timesink that makes combat take even longer. It's good metagaming to get your business done and give priority back to the players.

Opal:  These are rules that will apply only to PC's.  Monsters will remain "use as is".