Alright ladies and gentlemen, I have a test for our gestalt system. I am planning out character concepts for the future so that I can have a build for any occasion. Along with some of my builds, I am encountering prestiege classes. I need to know what the rating in the build is so that I can properly build.

1) Bladesinger/Duelist

The build emphasizes on 1h weapon combat, no armor, and some spellcasting abilities. first 6 levels of the build are 2wizard/4fighter. Not gestalt, the build then takes 7 levels of bladsinger, and 7 levels of Duelist. The build ends up with a 19bab, spellcasting as a 6th level wizard (just missing 4th level spells), and decent melee combat abilities.

Gestalting this class lets me dual fighter with either swashbuckler or monk (havn't decided yet) and lets me open up my prestiege classes. If both are +0 with fighter/(monk-swash), then I can take both Duelist and Bladesinger at the same time, resulting in a final build of effective 2 wizard, 10 Bladesinger/duelist, 8 fighter/swash (a little more convuluted than that, but like idea).

How do we determine what the + adjustment becomes?

2) 4rogue(warrior), 12fighter(monk or ninja), 4 tempist

What does the tempist equal out to? It does nothing for my rogue levels, just lets me dual wield better for the cost of either 4 lvls of rogue (2 dice of sneaks, some skills) or 4 levels of fighter (2 more feats).

DM's... thoughs? My thoughs are:

1) The bladesinger allows me to cast up to 4th levels spells with a full attack action, but only gives half spell progression. Duelist gives me some cool defensive and offensive abilities, but does not allow the use of armor. Essentially the build is a low ac front line melee with 7 effective levels of casting.

2) The power of the class is not greatly effected. The tempist allows me to dual weild better, but not significantly so.

1) First, Fighter levels get gestalt. :D. (Tier 5)

Second, Dualist is based from fighter, at a -2, it goes T6, and can continue the fighter's gestalt.

Third, Wizard gets no gestalt (Tier 1)

Fourth, Bladesinger advances spell casting, so it triggers from your casting class.  At a +1, that's tier 2, so no gestalt.

As for the tempest build....PrC forum rates tempest as a -1 class.  No matter how you trigger (Rogue or Fighter), the result is a T5 or T6 class, so the gestalt is the same...use T5 rules.

Question 1) What determins what class (if multiclassed) it uses as 'base' class?

Question 2) holy shit, why is duelist -2?

Other than that, makes sense. Im just pullin for my bladesinger to somehow get one more level of bladesinger w/o losing a level of Duelist

1) If it pumps up spell casting, use the casting class.  If the gestalt tier can be determined to be T5 or lower, or T2 or higher, it makes the discussion academic.  If the multiclass directly helps initiator level, it's prolly T3.  Other than that, it takes reasonable discussion between folks.

2) "Down Two or More Tiers: These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick."

Duelist

A note on the Duelist: The duelist was basically converted into the Swashbuckler Base Class anyway. And no one takes that past 3 levels. It's not a surprise... -Generic_PC

Logical Entry:

Cons: It forces you into a horrible fighting style, using only a single light or one handed piercing weapon with nothing in your offhand. Precise strike gives you pathetic damage, peaking a 2d6 damage at level 10. Dodge and mobility are generally subpar feats. Canny defense and elaboate parry just stink since they depend on how many levels of duelist you have. Grace requires you to not weak armor and have a shield. -Ninjarabbit

Pros: Improved reaction is the only good class feature since initative is always good. You also get full BAB, d10 hit dice, and 4 skill points/level. -Ninjarabbit

I'm not sure where to post this, but I found the first gestalt discussion very confusing because gestalt was described using the same [level, class, level, class] notation as multiclassing.  For example, people would say "two fighter, two adept" for gestalt, and "two fighter, two cleric" for multiclassing, when they are totally different concepts. 

 I suggest saying "plus" to designate gestalt and omitting the redundant level of the gestalted class.  People could say "two fighter plus adept" to designate gestalt and be a lot more clear. (However, please do not say "two fighter plus two adept" because the independent numbers imply multiclassing.)

lol fair enough. What I have been trying to do to differenciate is put class(gestalt), where the gestalt for the class is in ()'s

Ok, from here out, try to post gestalt class in either ( ), [ ], or { }.

So Sev's first build is Fighter {Swashbuckler} 4/Wizard 2/Bladesinger 10/Dualist {Swashbuckler} 4.