I added the official unofficial gaming thread, with rules.

http://severantos.webs.com/pickupgamingpug.htm

I think we should talk about the rule of having people roll in at a level lower than the party. This is meant to be fun for shits and giggles, I understand that the suggestion was to prevent abuse of re-rolling, but if it someone isn't enjoying a character they thought they would, I don't think they should be penalized for rolling something they want to try, or know they will enjoy more. 

That being said, If anyone tries to find some way to abuse re-rolling, they will be taken out to the shed and "Old Yeller'd" as i like to put it, but I don't think that will be an issue, as we all know that the goal of PUG is to have fun, try new things, and learn about playing and DM'ing as we go. 

that's just my 2cents tho  lemme know what you guys think.

Meh I don't think we have to worry about people breaking the system. The only benefit I see to people making characters over and over again is trying to get better stats. The only reason I'm thinking about making a new character is that this one is very much a RP concept character, not a combat oriented (like PUG is). We could fix this problem if we did a point buy system, but at the same time, I kinda like rolling my stats, and we already have ppl built at rolled. Maybe every new character has to use point buy?

Same as Zalon, just throwing ideas out.

Proposed Change:  Let people roll in new characters at party level if:

1. They are making a replacement for a dead character
2. They are trying out a new class.

If they are just trying to "tweak a build", it's one level below the rest of the group.

For the "tweak a build" thing, again, thinking along the lines of PUG is supposed to be a "Totally for fun" and "for learning" experience, what would you guys say to allowing one "tweak" every X levels?

When playing a new class, it is often difficult to forsee how abilities and spells and such will interact with a given party and/or in general. feats, skills, etc often get mis-assigned the first couple of times trying to play with a new build or class.

If one "Tweak" was allowed per (example 5) levels, then if i had metamagic: extend spell, when i actually should have taken Combat Casting (herpderp example is herpderp) once the party hits level five, I'd be able to switch out combat casting for extend spell.

Of course, If extend spell was the pre-req for any subsequent feats, that the character would lose the use of any subsequent dependant feats until they either re-learned extend spell, or gained another 5 levels and changed the subsequent spell as well.

If a character fucked up by taking extend spell, as well as Knowledge: Local, when they should have taken Knowledge: The Planes, and Combat casting, the "tweak" at level five would allow them to move the points they had put into knowledge: Local into The Planes, -OR- switch out combat casting for extend spell.

This helps prevent the improve stat rolls abuse mike mentioned, as well as removes the need to completely rebuild a character, allows for a bit of leaniency with new players and/or character concepts, while still holding the player moderately accountable for their mistakes and making sure people put appropriate time and thought into their characters.

Something i forgot to add to my original post: The point of PUG is to avoid wasting time on character creation, yes? Me, personally... i don't care who or what someone plays (or tweaks on their old character) as long as they have the character ready to go, and within the rules previously determined by the group (given wealth, not-being a d-bag, etc).

Learning about and improving one's ability to play a class is a lot of what i see as the point of playing a PUG vs a long term campaign: Deciding, what's good, bad, and ugly about builds, classes, equipment, etc, finding out what works and doesn't work, etc.

I understand the desire not to allow effectively new characters in every time, as some semblence of consistancy is definitely preferred when dealing with a PUG (for roleplay, as well as preventing headache for the party in general trying to remember 1000 names and characters), but I also know that it generally takes me at least a few tries to get things right before i get them where they should be to have a "proper" character (proper being, where I was expecting/hoping to get the character when i conceptualized the class/build at the beginning).

We could also create a maximum "fresh character" limit that states something to the effect of: "Players can create up to 3 unique characters (excluding deaths etc) while the party is levels 1-10." this means that the person can try two new classes/builds, but if things just don't work out, they can either risk using their last potential character on another new concept they might not like, or build their favorite/best class (ex: Me with a Dwarf/fighter, Sev with Elf Mage, Paladin with a given basher, etc) that would effectively guarantee an effective character. Once the party gets past 10, that limit would be reset and between 10-20 they could try another two or three, and if none of those are enjoyable/effective, they can return to their old standby as a "safety net" kind of thing.

TL;DR:

Hence my suggestion: I like Paladin's ideas about dead characters and new classes, but i would suggest also allowing occasional build tweaks throughout the levelling process (at an interval yet to be determined through discussion and/or vote).

Suggestion 2: Set a maximum for number of characters/builds allowed to prevent people from trying a million new characters (again going back to consistancy for party cohesion and RP value) with still allowing freedom to play around with new characters and builds and such.

-Z

A player can run up to 3 discrete (different lulz, mathspeak) characters for PUG at current level.  Every character made after that is penalized one level from the rest of the part (which doesn't underpower too much....and a few adventrues at level 20 means they will eventually catch up).

Once each at levels 5, 10, and 15, a player may "tweeK" their build for their characters.  Rolled stats stay the same, but the player may adjust as needed or wanted, feats, classes, skills, spells, etc.

If your character is killed, you may roll in a new character at no penalty.  Death happens after all.

so you're suggesting that a total overhaul of the character be allowed at every 5? (just asking for clarification, I like the idea)

also, thoughts on "re-making" a character after a death? should a player be able to re-create a similar or identical build or should each incarnation of the player be a unique experience?

are we planning on taking this epic? if so, what would you guys say to doing a handfull of sessions at 20 to get anyone that has lagged behind caught up (since hopefully we all will have decided on what we want to be our "Main" by then), then progressing everyone epic together (since the power scale goes crazy after you get epic)?

-Z

Hmmmm,.....maybe do the remake every 7....
7, 14, and 21 (if we go epic).  I don't mind a few stops at level 20.  Maybe we can do 2-3 adventures at various levels.  In other words.....let the party/dm decide if a level is appropriate for the work done.

Jeezus long forum has gotten long:

To summerize what has been said (at least what I have gotten out of it):

1) We are worried about people rerolling characters just to increase the stats

2) We want to give people the option of reworking characters every-so-often to allow people to tweak builds

3) We want to have as much fun as possible

If these are correct, here is what I suggest:

To deal with people rolling new stats, lets change it to your first character can be rolled. Any character after that can use your rolled list or can use 'x' points in the standard point buy system. This allows people who got a particularly shitty set to have a decent one, and people who were lucky to keep their luck. This is not unbalancing because, well, we are already using rolled stats. This is just making sure people dont lag behind because of stats. My only thought on changing what I have just said is not letting people use their first set, but that would only be to deter this happening often.

On the second note, every 5 levels seems reasonable, or every 7. 7 limits the number of times we can do it, which would matter to me if we were doing it in game time. But since all leveling is to be done outside of our 'together' time, I would say tweaking should be done outside as well. As such, I dont have any problem with it being done more often. Just not super often.

And number 3. This is fairly self explanitory. We want to have fun. The only thing that would ruin my fun is if people started getting way more powerful than I am and feeling useless (IE my bard lol). We are working to fix this. Other than that, lets not frett it too much and just have fun.

On the topic of epic, I am very, very cautious/nervous about going epic. In epic, the power of characters is rediculous. I, for one, do not like DM'ing epic level campaigns due to the difficulty of creating a good encounter. My few attempts have resulted in either the party massacering the opponents or the monsters doing the same to the party. I would prefer to not go epic, but if someone is willing to DM it, I guess I wouldnt have a problem with it.

In short, here is a revision of our rules as I have seen it:

Allow a rebuild of your character every (7?) levels. This allows someone who is happy about their character keep it, but tweak some feats/skills that may not be working as planned.

Allow people to make new characters if they feel the character they are currently playing is not going to work. This should be done as infrequently as possible. You can only make 3 characters total before you start taking penalties for changing our game too much. This should give you enough experimentation to get something right. If you havn't by then, there is something wrong.

1) Major tweaks (i.e. Rebuild) is allowed every 7 levels.

2) If a player feels their character cannot possibly function at current level, they may roll in another.  Players may only run 3 discrete builds at any given time.

3) If you make a 4th build, you take a 1 level penalty to that build, and all subsequent builds.

4) If a character reaches level 20, they may be retired.  A retired character no longer gains wealth from out of PUG experiences like other characters can.  However, a player can then devote that slot to another character.  Retired chars may be unretired for special events, with DM permission.  But they go back to Shady Acres as soon as things are done.

I like it. 

/approve

 Zalon?

just checking several things before class. at a glance seems alright, what about 1 minor tweak every 4 levels (4/8/12/16/20) and rebuilds every 7? i don't think characters should have to be 20 to retire, i just think people need to not be dicks about making a milion characters. if you really wanted to discourage it, you could make it a cumulative -1 level PER character more than 3 (4th at -1 5th at -2 6th at -3, etc). just some ideas, but i gotta run to class, will update later tonight and comb through things better.

-Z

mkay things look good for the most part as i said before, one thing i would like to say, is that i don't care if you feel your character is going to work or not... if you want to roll something new, go for it... as long as it's not super often (the 3 character limit with penalties after that i totally agree with).  since we're imposing the restrictions, i think we should be able to roll our new characters whenever we want to mix things up a bit, as long as we don't breach any of the other rules. 

Another suggestion for rebuilds is we could do it as 1 rebuild at 10, 1 at 20, and 1 that is usable whenever the player wants to use it (since each person will probably fuck up at a different spot.) If we go epic, we can talk about it then.  This means a lower number of total rebuilds, but it also ads more versatility on WHEN those rebuilds happen. 

thoughts? questions? comments? concerns?

-Z

What qualifies a total rebuild vs. a tweak?

rebuild = from the ground up rebuild of the character

tweak = 1 thing (1 feat, skill, stat bump placement, etc) ((one total, not one of each)

Ok.  Sounds good.  Just to codify:

A player may have one of three distinct characters for PUG without penalty.  For every distinct character past the third, a player will apply a -1 level penalty (cummulative) to that character.

A character may be tweaked ((one feat placement, redo of skills, OR attibute point placement)) ever 4 levels.  A character may rebuild once every 10 levels.

A player who SHOWS UP is entitled to the full IG reward for characters he/she does not use.  For example, if I play and run Grimm, then my other two characters get gold as well.  However, if I'm not around to play, my characters don't get the extra (IG) reward.  All players recieve the auto level and auto gold rewards.

I think we should make all characters independant. In game rewards for characters *\(like bonus gold for completing quests in a session) should be awarded to the character that completes that quest. This encourages people to stick with a fewer number of characters, and avoids abuse (intentional or unintentional) of the fact that party members can share gold. 

if everyone gets 500g from a king because they helped save da princess after fighting a dragon-turtle in 8 different castles, then if I play character A this week, and Paladin needs 400g to pour into his ancestral relic, then next week i play character B, and Sev needs 350g for an amulet of shielding, even though i was only supposed to get 500g from the quest, i have the ability to fulfill the party's need for 850g EXTRA on top of the 500 they each got.

Yes, it's helping others, which is awesome. 

Yes, it's helping the party, which is awesome. 

But it is also defeatingg the purpose of making people budget their resources in order to make things more interesting/challenging. 

SUGGESTED SOLUTION: If i'm on character A, and complete the quest to get 500g, I would suggest that that 500g stays on that character or is given to the party, not 500g to each of any given player's characters.

other than my gripe about the ingame reward gold and such, the rest of it looks good to me ^_^